kind of pissed off

[amalthia]

Okay first this is a rant...chances are none of what I write will be rational and I'll probably offend more than a few people...this is your chance to scroll on past and ignore this crazy girl.

This is where it started...SGA_SANTA apparently because they had 82 people sign up the moderators decided to post the stories on a website instead of having 82 posts in the sga_santa which really would kill my friends list for a week. Anyway I think it's a good idea, also it'll allow people outside of LJ to read the fics. I'm okay with it.

Now what has me pissed off is the people who don't want their fics on a website. I'm like WTF is wrong with websites? is it because if your story isn't on your LJ it means you can't friendslock it, or delete as soon as you think your story sucks and no one should be able to read it anymore? or you think your LJ design is 100X better than anything moonlettuce can come up with? (trust me not all LJ users are good website designers, in fact a lot do a real shitty job of making it easy to read their fics, you've seen them, the black background, super tiny white text)

Anyway, I just don't get what people have against websites nowdays??? I mean it feels like if you don't own a LJ you can forget about reading the new/all fics for SGA. Not all authors are archiving their fics with Wraithbait or anywhere else for that matter. And what really pisses me off is when authors remove their LJ and all the stories they had are gone for good, unless someone was smart enough to save them onto their harddrive. (there is a reason I obsessively save fics) So maybe that's what LJ users have against websites. It's one more step in their way to removing their fic from the net? (btw, moonlettuce already said she didn't plan to keep the website up forever and ever.)

I get that people want to have control over their stories. I do understand that. What I don't get is if you put something out there for the fandom why are you taking it away later? So basically this whole SGA Santa thing brought up all sorts of stuff I'm already kind of upset about and the issues I have with fandoms and inconsiderate authors. I don't mean the ones that tell everyone a month or two in advance that they are leaving...

I don't get why people friendslock their fics. I mean for me LJ is about getting in touch with people sharing, not hiding and forming secret friends groups. (maybe it satisfies some need not met in High School??? ) again who knows?

I guess all my anger and frustration boils down to my issues with people friendlocking their journals, deleting them, and removing all their fics from everywhere for no good reason.

Which doesn't really explain why I'm so upset that 3 or 4 people don't want their fic posted on a website? I don't think moonlettuce should change their plans because it makes 3 or 4 people unhappy. they are acting like it's the fucking end of the world because instead of reading their fic via LJ they have to god forbid visit another website? WTF is wrong with these people? seriously, moonlettuce is not going to remove warnings, fuck up the format, or make it near impossible to find the text (like I've seen some LJ users do). I happen to love LJ and I love websites. I think both are vital for a fandom community. Not everyone has a LJ and right now I'm seeing a trend where the people who don't have a LJ are kind of left out of the loop when it comes to finding stories, stargate episodes, and other information.

which makes me appreciate the people willing to create and maintain archives, personal fiction pages, information pages all the more.

I'm going to eat some food.

Comments

Since you bring it up ...

[chal.livejournal.com]

... and I am guilty of pretty much everything you mentioned, do you include my LJ as one of those that is difficult to read? I ask because I've switched to a dark grey background in the hopes it would help, but I'm not sure it did. Maybe I should go on and switch to black text on white background.

I am torn on the whole concept myself. The number one reason that I friendslocked all my fiction is pure paranoia. I don't trust a parent to not monitor their child on the internet, have the child find my smut and it result in a law suit. I picked LJ because it is big and free to join, and adds just enough of a buffer to keep the problem (and the culpability) to a minimum. By the same token, I am unlikely to jump through hoops to gain access to people's fan work in other protected forums, and find it very annoying when I have to.

In a perfect world, all I would have to do is post a warning and we could all enjoy ourselves without being interfered with, but ... well, you know the rest.

Re: Since you bring it up ...

[amalthia]

um I haven't read your stories on your LJ, I read them back when they were on your website and no you're weren't the LJ owner I was thinking of at all. I friended you in case you decided to write more and because I thought your posts are interesting. :)

Um actually what you wrote make a lot of sense. It's an answer. And you did give people warning that you were going to take down your site. I remember seeing that and frantically saving everything I could. At least I think I remember you giving some kind of warning.

I think if I cared more about what other people's kids I'd do more friendslocking and password protecting myself. though the lawsuit thing is kind of scary. You're not the only one that's taken measures to protect themselves as much as possible and still enjoy fandom at the same time.

with the sga_santa thing I'm not getting a sense that they are protecting other people's children from porn. Because the stories are supposed to be posted so everyone can read them. On the website the availablity has not changed, just the venue that the stories are served on.

Anyway thanks for writing, it helps honestly it really does. The not knowing and trying to come up with reasons is a killer. I hadn't considered things the same way you did. Eventually, I'm afraid that I'll also have to put some sort of password protection on the Angst Archive and I really don't want to because I think it's the parent's responblity to monintor their kids online when we let the law do the parenting..things have really gone down the shit hole. but that's a whole other issue.

Re: Since you bring it up ...

[shetiger.livejournal.com]

I think people throwing a fit about the website thing is ridiculous and rude. I applaud you for saying so.

Re: Since you bring it up ...

[amalthia]

well that was my first reaction when I read the comments, and even after getting the other side's opinions...I feel for the people who are upset but at the same time I don't get why they are making a big deal over it. I think in my rant I could have phrased things better but actually because I was anger that's probably exactly what I needed to write to get things off my chest.

I think maybe back when I was a newbie writer and thought all my stuff was precious gold (okay maybe more like silver) I was more possessive and wanted complete and TOTAL CONTROL but now 7 years later I think I'm more laid back about it. I'm actually kind of surprised by my change in attitude.

At this point I feel for moonlettuce and alyse because they have to deal with the unhappy and vocal minority of people who are upset about this minor change in plans.

Re: Since you bring it up ...

[amalthia]

Here is a perfect example of bad formatting for a LJ....

http://www.livejournal.com/users/custardpringle/235059.html

it's a good story but a real bitch to read because of the color, the squeezed together text...I don't know I like when the story sprawls across the screen not stays stuck in 20% of the screen space.

Re: Since you bring it up ...

[chal.livejournal.com]

::crossed eyes:: Oi. That I think I would have noticed if my own LJ were that bad. I couldn't even focus on the words enough to try reading it.

Re: Since you bring it up ...

[amalthia]

and this is just one of MANY examples. However to be fair and honest there are still lots of fan fic sites that do the same thing with the background and text and sometimes they add music and weird formatting...

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

well, i'm not going to get into the rest of the issues, but i can speak to flocking and maintaining control over your readership and i think can understand why someone would want to maintain control of their stories.

once upon a time (i.e., in the good old days that of course never really existed the way we retroactively construct them :-), fandom was a very tight-knit group that you kind of had to know someone to get access to (bacon-smith makes it sound like the 10 levels of initiation, but from what i hear, there was at least a certain sense of initiation/mentorship/vouching going on).

b/c even though we think writing porn about tv characters, book characters, real people, some of them underage, others in quite excessive situations is cool does not mean people around us (pretty much *everyone* around us) thinks so. as a result, it makes sense to stay low profile both in terms of copyright issues as well as in terms of not outing yourself.

with the internet, however, everything is so much more public and available. not even a mailing list, where you at least had to know about it to get to it; no, you type in "Harry and Draco" and end up on NC17 sites... meanwhile, every journalist and their brother discovers the perversity that is slash yet again...(and it's always slash and the examples are always NC17, preferably underage!)

yes, i find it annoying to have to jump through hoops to read certain stories, but considering how easy most make that access and the fact that they're simply ensuring that their stories can be removed without a trace and won't stay in archive.org's memory forever...i totally get that.

so, people may take stories away b/c their situations change; people may want to control access for any number of reasons (think fundamentalist employer who's just looking for a reason, angry ex-spouse who's challenging you for custody,...i think we can all make up scenarios...). i think that's their right. it's their right to take their stories down (however much it may annoy me), to limit its audience, or to ask certain things of potential readers (like age checks).

as for the LJ problem...why not teach people how to use filters??? everyone worried about their flist can have their SGA_santa filter and thus can save their flist from the problem (and the organizer has learned a vital lesson and will specify next year that everything will be posted to a website...like most other seasonal challenges i follow do)

[amalthia]

Don't most people who post online use a pen names? When I was 16 and first got on the internet I had the common sense to use a fake name, just in case. I think it's very easy to hide your internet activities from people if you never use your real name and other people host your fics for you.

for the secret santa thing, I don't know it seems easier for them to post all the stories on a single page than require over 100 people to learn how to use filters.

I'm not disagreeing that the author should have rights and control over their fics. I've been okay with authors pulling their fics from the net, especially when they give advance warning that they are leaving fandom for greener pastures.

I can even understand people not having the foresight to use fake names panic and delete everything related to them online. What really bugs me though is the people who just got bored, got in a fight with someone or another, someone said their fic sucked...who knows and they just up and dissapear or remove their fics for no good reason.

Like the HP Harry/Snape archive that just went down with no warning, the person appparently just lost interest and took down the site. Didn't bother to ask if anyone else had a vested interest in running it for her, or anything. It was the biggest Harry/Snape archive and a lot of people had links going to the archive. and some stories you probably couldn't find anywhere else but at that archive.

I don't know, when I started the Angst Archive back in 97 even at the age of 17 I knew that once I started this I wanted it to be something for the fans and that if I ever lost interest I'd find someone else willing to take it from me so the community wouldn't lose the archive.

When authors pull their fics I feel like something is lost from the community.

I'm not that much a bastard to not appreciate that people have lives outside of fandom and sometimes they just want to cut all ties and move on, especially if custody of their children is at risk or a job. I just feel a sense of loss and sometimes it builds up until I reach a point where I just have to yell about it even if it's just on my LJ.

And LJs are deleted about as often as websites, it's just harder to keep track of the stories once the journal is gone. With websites some stories are spread out more and so when one goes down, there's another copy. With LJ people put a lot of stuff in memories, but once the journal is deleted the story isn't there anymore. Sure lots of authors probably like that feature but as a reader and fan I think when they pull stunts like that it sucks. It's their right but it doesn't mean I have to like it or thank them for pulling stories that new fans will now never get the chance to read or people who want to re-read will not have the chance unless someone saved a copy to their harddrive.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

oh, i agree with your frustration! i just started a story that i'd saved a couple of years ago and then drifted out of the fandom only to realize that i'd forgoten to save the second nd third page. and the author had pulled it from the archive...i was quite annoyed :-)

thing with pseudonyms is, it's quite hard to keep your identity all secret, esp. when you interact in RL...plus, my concern has always been much more about RL finding my online pseudonym than vice versa.

i agree that providing fannish infrastructure begins a form of social contract and i don't get why people need to "own" an archive and can't just pass it on (as many other archives do and have done); i also really kind of dislike LJ for the way it makes it so very easy to erase or flock entire journals.

Part of me has this pick up and hide mentality that is happy that it's possible, the archivist in me shudders that all traces may disappear so easily...

but bottom line in the situation at hand is that the organizer could have and should have looked at other similar challenges and thought about how to go about it. yes, i like a web site better for the all at once presentation as well (like Don We Now Our Gay Apparel does); or posting the fics a few at a time (as merry_smutmas does). But that's something that needed to be addressed *before* people signed up...

[amalthia]

I agree with everything you just wrote. I think maybe I don't know enough about tracking ids through the web otherwise maybe I would be more worried...I just assumed if you never use your real name how would people from RL track your online activity?

for the sga_santa I really don't think moonlettuce or Alyse realized people would have problems with a webpage (I think most people are okay with it, but the few that aren't, really are unhappy and that sucks) The other option is they didn't realize so many people would sign up and where unprepared. I'm not sure how much research they did beforehand but I have a feeling after this year they'll change the rules or never do it again, or pass it on to a new set of people. It's a good idea it's just needs some fine tuning to make sure everyone knows what they are getting into.

[moonlettuce.livejournal.com]

It's a good idea it's just needs some fine tuning to make sure everyone knows what they are getting into.

Tell me about it *grin*

Sticking My Nose In Again ...

[chal.livejournal.com]

I just assumed if you never use your real name how would people from RL track your online activity?

I would have agreed with you once ... but then I got a piece of junk mail sent to my home address, to the name Chalcedony Cross. Freaked me OUT! Thankfully, no angry parents or axe-wielding evangelists have appeared on my doorstep yet.

Kind of irrelevant to the original topic, but it still makes me paranoid sometimes.

=^>.>^= =^<.<^=

Re: Sticking My Nose In Again ...

[amalthia]

ekks! I'd be totally freaked out too. Like how the hell did they get your address???? Even if you pay for your webspace you normally have to use your real name. I've never had anything like that happen to me.

[niqaeli]

I am an uninvolved observer just wandering through... I just thought I'd try and explain why those few people are so unhappy with this situation. It has practically nothing at all to do with warnings, format, or webdesign. Rather, it is the fact that it is an incredible breach of accepted fanfic archive etiquette that has their backs up.

Say there are two fanfic archives, Archive A and Archive B. Ficthoria, a fanfic writer, has given her permission to Archive A to archive her fanfic 'Annabelle's Adventures In The 100 Acres Woods'. This, you will agree, has absolutely nothing to do whether Archive B has her permission to archive this fanfic, and in fact, Ficthoria has *not* given Archive B her permission.

So if Archive B archives a copy of 'Annabelle's Adventures In The 100 Acres Woods', Ficthoria would have a legitimate grievance against them. Now, when confronted, Archive B points to Archive A and says "But you gave *them* permission!" we would all stare at their lack of logic and sense making.

The fact that the same person, Kyvthiarc, runs Archive A and Archive B is is irrelevant, as Ficthoria never gave Kyvthiarc personal blanket permission to repost 'Annabelle's Adventures In The 100 Acres Woods' anywhere Kyvthiarc thought it would be appropriate.

The fact that Archive A is on LJ and Archive B is on a seperate web-site is also irrelevant. Archive A and Archive B are seperate entities. Seperate permission must be sought for each archive. When Ficthoria signed on, she signed on for her stuff being at Archive A and no mention whatsoever was made of Archive B.

This means that Kyvthiarc's expressed intention of archiving 'Annabelle's Adventures In The 100 Acres Woods' has Ficthoria rather upset and not, I feel, without good reason.

I'm sure that moonlettuce hasn't thought of it in these terms, because folks did, after all, sign on for having their stories posted by the moderator to LJ--why would a change in venue be upsetting?

I'm afraid I agree with the writers on this one. I've nothing whatsoever against web-site archiving. In fact, I'm working on one right now for a friend for a ficathon--but the folks who signed on for that ficathon knew that it would be archived on a web-site going in.

I just find it a shame that so much stress is coming out of what should be a fun exchange of fanfic. Holidays shouldn't be associated with stress and frustration, even though they are.

[amalthia]

I agree completely about the archive analogy. I've been running the Angst Archive over 7 years now. I think most archivists are in the know about what's right or wrong when it comes to regular fiction and archive sites.

I think the new unknown terrority is where do LJ's fit? I don't think everyone looks at them the same way people look at fiction sites or regular archives. That doesn't mean people should post fics without permission, but I can see how this situation with the sga_santa could arise.

I don't think there has been any big discussions on what's acceptable with LJs and what's not? Or if there has been I missed out. Until saeva comments it never would have occured to me that anyone would mind if instead of stories getting posted in a LJ entry they are instead posted on another page. I myself am not bothered but it doesn't take away the fact that some authors are very unhappy about this.


Anyway I'm glad I'm not the one running the community and I hope things work out for the best for everyone.

[niqaeli]

I feel rather badly for all involved, as it seems to simply be a misunderstanding due to LJ having, hm, a sort of 'unofficial' status. It's more informal, so etiquette that people know and cheerfully agree with gets forgotten because of the atmosphere and not because they actually intend to be rude.

I hope some kind of compromise gets worked out--it really is a shame to have something like this cast a pall over what should be all about the shiny fic. :)

[campmotha.livejournal.com]

Ok so i dont know much about Fan ficts and stuff, But i dont see what the peoples problem is, i me an cant their be alink to their Lj's next to teh Fic or somethign on the site? sorry i am ignorant and may not understand, But if hey go top the trouble of writing a fic, why not put it out there?

[amalthia]

I ask myself the same question. It's kind of funny though back when I first started writing fan fiction I was so possessive of my fics, now I'm at the point where I don't care anymore if people post them. If my fics say to ask permission its because I'm copying and pasting the header files.

[campmotha.livejournal.com]

you do? wicked i was afraid that i was just babbling LOL

[boutondor.livejournal.com]

If I agreed to participate in sga_santa I would be ok with my fic posted on a website but as a general rule, I'm one of those people who are overprotective of their work.

*I* write my fics. It may sound cliche but when I write, I write first and foremost for me. So if I feel after a while that I want it to be taken off the net, it's my prerogative. I don't owe anyone my fics. I am not paid for it. I haven't friend-locked any fic yet, but I might post a fic in the future that will only be for my friends list. Again, it's my right to limit who will read it and who won't.

Of course if I friend-locked a fic, I wouldn't post a link to it on a community like some people do with icons in, thankfully, other fandoms.

[amalthia]

Yeah I think everyone likes having some sense of control over their creative products. :)